ctfisherman.com logo
Page 112 of 177 < 1 2 ... 110 111 112 113 114 ... 176 177 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
Hop to:
#398012 - 10/18/04 11:47 PM Re: Political Discussion: One Thread Only!
Anonymous
Unregistered


To JFM, Slacktide, and Kevin B:

I just now logged back on and have read Slack's and Kevin's response to my teasing JFM.

I was seriously just kidding and trying to turn the nastiness level down with some good natured, well-intentioned joking, hence my use of the smiley faces. I meant no offense whatsoever!

To those of you who took that as mean-spirited or harsh, or rude, or out of line, I sincerely apologize.

More importantly, JFM, if YOU took offense at that, and took it as intentionally hurtful or out of bounds, I likewise sincerely apologize. Your link to the poll left the opening and I couldn't resist the temptation to knock it out of the park. It was not done in any hurtful or mean-spirited way, or to offend you. It was just a joke.

I actually thought for a minute there that you and I might be reaching a point where we could have a little fun with one another and not take it personally, not take offense, and lighten up a bit. I would never dish out anything I wasn't willing to take myself. I sincerely meant no harm, offense, or embarrassment to anyone. If that is the case I am truly sorry.

I will now edit that post and delete the offending remark in question. I again apologize if I crossed some line. I really only meant that in jest, and to lighten up the tension which has built between us during this discussion. Again, I apologize if it was not taken in the spirit in which I intended it.

John, I am sorry.

Sincerely,

Jim
Top
Fishing Info
#398013 - 10/19/04 12:26 AM Re: Political Discussion: One Thread Only!
Anonymous
Unregistered


Buck,

I have read all of your posts on the subject of the candidates' military service.

I realize what it takes to reach flight status. When I state that Bush's assignment was "cushy" I am only referring to the fact that he remained state side and was never under fire. Ever.

IMHO, being "available for assignment" for 2 years, or 4 years, or 6 years, or whatever, does not come close to being shot at overseas for 4 months. I am not comparing the length of the candidates' service, how many days they actually spent on duty, I am simply pointing out that Kerry was overseas and under fire and Bush never was.

Beyond his achieving flight status, I am skeptical that Bush ever did much of anything that was required of him while he was in the Air Guard, again using his family's wealth and privilege to get special treatment. Further, I am skeptical that he actually earned or deserved his honorable discharge, but rather, I tend to suspect that his family and his wealth had a great deal to do with that. And I do not trust the accuracy of his military records for the same reason.

As for Kerry, I already told you that you raise some valid points, and that I am not impressed with him over this, based upon what you have posted regarding his purple hearts, abbreviated tour, and early discharge. Again, I am sure that his family and his wealth had a great deal to do with that, too. It was not until I read your posts that I began to look at it this way, so what you say has not completely fallen on deaf ears.

As for Kerry coming home and protesting the war, alot of people did that, vets and civilians alike. I was young then, but I remember the protests and the division over the war. I have not read or seen everything that Kerry said about the war and the vets, but I believe that whatever he said has largely been taken out of context and spun, and that while he criticized the government and the war, that he was not criticizing the men fighting the war. I believe he was pointing out the horrors of the war in his effort to speak out against it and convince the U.S. to get out of Vietnam, and that what he said was intended to demonstrate those horrors, not to indict his fellow veterans. And I also tend to believe that alot of what he said was true; there were horrible things happening in Vietnam, just as there are always horrible things that happen during any war.

As far as Kerry protesting the war after leaving the military, personally, I do not attach that in any way to his military service. That was a political statement, it was political activism, and has nothing to do with his military service or record, in my estimation. His military service is what he did while he was in the Navy, including the four months he spent in combat, overseas, under enemy fire. Once he got out of the Navy, however he got out of the Navy, for whatever reason he chose to leave the Navy, is a separate and distinct subject. Once he left the military he was entitled to have and express his opinions, just as any other citizen is. He chose to protest the war and to do whatever he could to convince the government to get out of Vietnam.

Throwing away his ribbons and such was done to make a statement. I can appreciate how you might look at that as disrespectful, from your point of view. Personally, if I had been Kerry, I don't think I would have done all of the things he did. I don't think he would do things the same way if he had it to do over. It was a very heated and tense time in this country, emotions ran high, he was young and passionate, and the protests back then were very dramatic. It needs to be viewed in context, IMHO.

I will not condemn him for acting on his convictions on the war. He was certainly not the only vet to do so. I don't think that makes him a poor politician, a poor legislator, or a poor candidate for President; nor do I believe that it taints or detracts from the time he did spend overseas, under fire, serving in the Armed Forces. This is just my opinion. You are certainly entitled to yours. And I am more than happy to agree to disagree with you.

Respectfully,

Jim
Top
#398014 - 10/19/04 01:20 AM Re: Political Discussion: One Thread Only!
Anonymous
Unregistered


 Quote:
Originally posted by Kevin B:
People should stick to the issues.
Kevin, you mean stick to the issues like this:

"Comrade Val:
I do know that you have a very good grasp of the cut and paste function of Microsoft Windows. For that, you deserve credit and praise.

I still want to know why you are so pissed at the "system". In what aspect of your life are you mad at society or feel left behind?

Personally, I think there's something you're not telling us about yourself........eh Comrade??"


"...what an idiotic statement."


"Nu2salt:

Your thoughts are lost in a sea of confusion.
Maybe you outta practice some of that Catholisism and ask for a confession.

On second thought, perhaps the rights of Exorcism should be performed."


"Comrade Val: Really.......with what is your gripe?"


"Comrade Val: Why are you so angry?"


"Val is part of the "Hate America First" crowd. No matter what, it's our fault."


Comrade Val:

Do you realize that no one reads your posts.

Man.....cutting and pasting any off the wall story or article you can find on the internet ain't no way to win an argument.

To me...it shows a lack of personal knowledge of the topic."


"Nu2Salt: You just explained ALOT to me as to why you have leftist leanings.

I knew it had a core or a source, which comes out of anger. Anger toward the "system" or the "man".

Sorry, but as a State employee who can retire after 20 years, you are NOT in the real world.

What level of education have you attained?

I knew it...I knew it. Makes sense to me now."


"Nu2Salt:

Your hostility toward the "establishment", which you seem to think are the conservatives, comes from what you perceive to be a gross inadequacy in your life. You're mad at those who "have", but deep down, mad at yourself for not acheiving better in your life.

Perhaps you'd be less hostile if you finished college and didn't have to be "kicked", "punched" , "spit at", etc etc etc.."


"Nu2Salt:

There are various medications that can calm you. Prozac and drugs similar to that would help your hostility and anger. You need to get it under control, otherwise, you will continue to think unclearly.

FWIW, my Minor degree was Psych., so I am aware of aggressive behavior and hostility, manifested in Political dribble and a hatred for a certain "class" of people.

Your distaste for those who've worked hard and attained something in life shows that you are not happy with your own success, or lack thereof. For that, I am sorry. Only you can make yourself feel better with where you are in life.

I can assure you though, that rambling about the "haves vs. have-nots" will not help you attain any internal peace. My condolensces."


"Nu2Salt: Alas, you're anger at those with means continues to be apparent. You are obviously not a free market economist."


"I believe you are part of the "hate America first crowd".


"Holy Cow, you are truely a Communist."


"I didn't call Nu2salt a Communist"

I'm sure I could find more if I looked further. But I'm sure I've made my point.

If you continue to bait and insult people, you've got to expect to get it back. Turnabout IS fair play! What goes around DOES come around. And if you can't stand the heat you really SHOULD stay off the stove.

Nevertheless, the remark in question TRULY was not made in a hurtful or offensive spirit, I was just kidding and trying to take the edge off of all the other crap that has gone on.

Again, I apologize to JFM and anyone else who was offended by that or took me wrong.

Peace!

Sincerely,

Jim
Top
#398015 - 10/19/04 01:24 AM Re: Political Discussion: One Thread Only!
Anonymous
Unregistered


nu2salt,

I think you are being too nice.


 Quote:
Originally posted by Buck:
Val, this will be extremely embarrassing for you, and I will deserve an apology, but the document that you posted has nothing to do with Kerry's discharge from the service. The document is for Kerry's graduation from the US Naval Officer Candidate School dated 15 December 1966. Approximately six years later, on 17 February 1972, would be Kerry's Nominal Date of Expiration of Assignment. That is when it was anticipated he would get his honorable discharge from the Navy but of course, we know he was let out early with a less than honorable discharge.
Now for the bad news. Kerry's discharge document is on his site and it shows 1978. Plus it shows a reference to some regs as for the reason it was so late. So now I am going to have to do some more research and find out why his discharge was changed to honorable under President Carter's amnesty program for Vietnam era undesirables.

...John Kerry got our early, got at best a general discharge but it may have been dishonorable, ....and had to beg for an honorable discharge from President Carter under his amnesty program.


Buck,

I agree with you, I pointed to the wrong document. Show me the right one. Prove your stories about Kerry's having to "to beg for an honorable discharge from President Carter under his amnesty program."

While you are doing your research, you might as well explain how is it that Bush is such an 'honorable' soldier.

 Quote:
Boston Globe: The reexamination of Bush's records by the Globe, along with interviews with military specialists who have reviewed regulations from that era, show that Bush's attendance at required training drills was so irregular that his superiors could have disciplined him or ordered him to active duty in 1972, 1973, or 1974. But they did neither.

The Globe contacted retired Lieutenant Colonel Albert C. Lloyd Jr., the former Texas Air National Guard personnel chief who in February said the records showed Bush had fulfilled his minimum obligations. This time Lloyd agreed that Bush should have joined a reserve unit in the Boston area when he moved to Cambridge in September 1973.

Lloyd: (Bush) took a chance that he could be called up for active duty. But the war was winding down, and he probably knew that the Air Force was not enforcing the penalty. . . . (What a freaking hero this Dubya is! \:o \:o \:o He took a chance to serve in combat knowing the war was over!!! ) There were hundreds of guys like him who did the same thing.

Actually, the Vietnam war was officially over by the time Bush went to Harvard. The US and North Vietnam signed a cease-fire agreement in January of 1973, and the last US combat troops came home in March (leaving only advisers and Marines protecting US installations). The last person drafted into the Army entered service June 30, 1973.

White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan disputed the Globe conclusion:

McClellan: If the President had not fulfilled his commitment he would not have been honorably discharged. (Even if his daddy was G. H. W. Bush, who are you kidding Mr. McClellan? ) He was honorably discharged in October of '73. The President is proud of his service in the National Guard. . . . The President met his commitments in Texas. He met his commitments in Alabama. He met his commitments when he returned to Texas in 1973.

Q: Did he meet his commitments in Boston?

McClellan: As I said, Caren, if he had not fulfilled his commitments, he would not have been honorably discharged.

Now lets summarize:

Kerry says: I served in Vietnam, which is well documented and witnessed, and therefore I received an HONORABLE DISCHARGE.

Bush says: I received an HONORABLE DISCHARGE, therefore I must have served, right?


Nobody can accuse W and Buck of being great students of LOGIC.
Top
#398016 - 10/19/04 01:41 AM Re: Political Discussion: One Thread Only!
Baitrunner Offline
Member

Registered: 04/12/02
Posts: 1366
Gentlemen, It's bad enough to have to read the usual "litnany of complaints"; it's even worse when they are so tediously long-winded. T'is plain to see that brevity is not your long suit! :p

"I think, that all right-thinking people, are sick and tired of being told that they are sick and tired of being sick and tired. I, for one, am not. And I'm sick and tired of being told that I am!"
Top
#398017 - 10/19/04 01:46 AM Re: Political Discussion: One Thread Only!
Anonymous
Unregistered


BR,

I will be brief and then I will go to bed.

When you (and I don't mean you alone) have nothing to say, just don't say it. :p

Good night to all.
Top
#398018 - 10/19/04 01:52 AM Re: Political Discussion: One Thread Only!
slacktide Offline

Barstool philosopher

Registered: 03/19/02
Posts: 4262
You guys are too much!!
Top
#398019 - 10/19/04 02:06 AM Re: Political Discussion: One Thread Only!
Baitrunner Offline
Member

Registered: 04/12/02
Posts: 1366
 Quote:
Originally posted by slacktide:
You guys are too much!!
Ya like that, eh "Slacker"? Then you'll love this!

The Libs always have plenty to say; it's just that none of it ever makes any sense!

See? Brevity truly IS the soul of wit! ;\)

"I think, that all right-thinking people, are sick and tired of being told that they are sick and tired of being sick and tired. I, for one, am not. And I'm sick and tired of being told that I am!"
Top
#398020 - 10/19/04 02:19 AM Re: Political Discussion: One Thread Only!
Buck Offline

Member

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 11206
Val, sorry for the delay, got tied up in the baseball game. I don't know if I can cut and paste the document but I will point to it on Kerry's website and point out the facts of interest.
By the way, the logic flow is "Kerry served in Vietnam, it is well documented and witnessed, but it does not mean he received an honorable discharge." The two events are mutually exclusive and unrelated.
Top
#398021 - 10/19/04 03:24 AM Re: Political Discussion: One Thread Only!
Buck Offline

Member

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 11206
http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilservice/Honorable_Discharge_From_Reserve.pdf

This should be the document. It is dated 16 February 1978 and is signed by W. Graham Claytor the Secretary of the Navy under President Carter.
This is John Kerry's honorable discharge but he was discharged from the Navy before 1972 so the question becomes, "what kind of discharge did John Kerry get when he left the service prior to 1972". We don't know because this is one of the records John Kerry refuses to release by signing US Standard Form 180 which would allow the release of all of his military records but it certainly was not an honorable discharge because, if it was honorable, there would have been no need to apply and receive this honorable discharge in 1978.
So what happened? What happened is John Kerry got either a general discharge or a dishonorable discharge or something less than honorable which is not surprising because he essentially quit the Navy before his legal contract period was up. The window of opportunity for the redemption of John Kerry occurred when Jimmy Carter became president. President Carter's first act, on inauguration day, was to sign Executive Order 4483 which was a general amnesty for draft dodgers, war protestors, and those with less than honorable discharges, among other societal miscreants. The Executive Order outlined a procedure for an appeal, on a case by case basis, before a Board of Officers (which is referenced on the discharge document). A satisfactory appeal would result in an improvement of discharge status or an honorable discharge.
Also on the discharge document is the "Authority of Reference" which cites "Title 10, U.S. Code Section 1162 and 1163". These sections of the Code refer to the grounds for involuntary separation from the service. So it appears that Kerry either involuntarily separated from the service himself by resigning his commission prior to 1972 or was involuntarily separated from the service by the Navy for cause prior to 1972 and in either case the separation was "less than honorable". But again, these documents have not been released by Kerry so we are not sure precisely what kind of involuntary separation took place.
That is what the document tells me. Whats more important is that John Kerry and his campaign refuses to discuss the issue of discharge separation and refuses to release somewhere around 100 military documents. He portrays himself as a hero but does not want his past scrutinized. This is dishonest.
Top
Page 112 of 177 < 1 2 ... 110 111 112 113 114 ... 176 177 >

Moderator:  Editors, Jimbo, STRIPMINER 


Active Topics